Pursuing a Better Working Environment

We are definitely living in challenging but exciting times for flexible work arrangements. And that’s something very exciting to me. And I think probably many of you. And now we have it. So now we need to really work through how do we still maintain and even improve growth and exposure during this time

There’s no question, there’s extra pressure during flexible working arrangements. But we have also found that there’s some real benefits that come out of this time, especially if you change your perspective.

I love the initiative, but it doesn’t have to be a huge thing that you do. It could just be make knowing that you’re interested. So when you do meet somebody new in the company, or have a little time to talk with them, just ask, what are you doing right now that you’ve found really effective? So I think comes down to exactly what you said taking initiative, and it’s not a huge initiative. It’s a small one, but just really leveraging those opportunities you already have and keep pushing, like you would normally do in networking in person and now you’re doing it virtually.

I think in general, I think we would all agree that in many ways, being in this virtual environment has really leveled the playing field, and eliminated some of the barriers of having exposure to even more people than we would have otherwise. Particularly if we’re geographically spread across offices and across locations. It’s helped us to think of that team environment a little differently.

I love the adage that your “No” is as important as your “Yes.” And so making sure that you’re intentional about your time and where you’re spending your time you’re carving out that time specifically on your calendar to realize those growth opportunities that are important to you.

I think sometimes it takes some bravery and stepping out, you have to be your own advocate and take the initiative to find these opportunities. They’re not necessarily going to come find you. So that would definitely be a recommendation is that you need to take the initiative to seek it and use the resources, all resources that are available to you.

I also find that people are less likely to ask questions, which are important for growth, because they feel like they’d have to schedule that as opposed to if we’re in the office, they can walk by and just ask a quick question that might be very meaningful.

Things are now more scheduled meetings. So I find this is a better opportunity for me to include line managers who have subject matter expertise on a particular topic of interest for senior management. And instead of me walking by and giving the answer, I have the opportunity now to schedule a call so that my line managers get that exposure and it gives them a chance to sort of show their strength.

The key was to be kind to myself. And I think we’re all guilty of that. I think we put so much pressure on ourselves. It’s important to stay focused. And sometimes that means taking some time off, taking a break, walking away from the computer. And I find that that’s really part of the growth. I think it’s volunteering and being available to your team so that you can help them grow as well. But it’s also taking the time for yourself.

Moderator 00:06

Thank you for joining us for this next session focused on achieving growth and exposure in a hybrid working environment. At this time, I’m pleased to introduce our speakers. We have Janet Lindstrom, EVP Chief Transformation Officer of Arch Insurance Group; Kelsey Cabrera, SVP Product Strategy and Delivery of Arch Insurance Group; Shiva Altadonna, Senior Vice President of Shared Services Claims for Arch Insurance Group; and Jacqueline Lozano, Manager of Marketing and Communication for Arch Insurance Group. We are so excited about this topic, as it’s especially relevant today and excited to hear from these key leaders on how to focus on achieving growth and exposure in a hybrid working environment. So at this point, I’ll hand it over to Janet. Thank you.

Janet Lindstrom 00:54

Thank you, Jesse. Thank you to everybody who’s joined us. We are definitely living in challenging but exciting times for flexible work arrangements. And that’s something very exciting to me. And I think probably many of you who were prior to the last year and a half really looking to have more of a flexible working arrangement. And now we have it. So now we need to really work through how do we still maintain and even improve growth and exposure during this time. So that’s what we’re going to be talking about today.

But first, I wanted to weave in that I really enjoyed Nancy Kerrigan’s comments. As I was listening, I realized that they apply to everything we’re going to be talking about too. So I wanted to weave that in and then see if you would find the same and even please chat in at any point in time, if you see some parallels.

So the first thing is preparation. And I feel like that’s what we’re doing right now here. We’re actually preparing, what do we need to do so we can have better growth and exposure in a flexible working arrangement. As far as perseverance goes, it’s definitely finding what works and doing it over and over. And getting rid of the things that don’t work. Really looking for some new solutions, which again, I think we’re doing today and in the future.

And then pressure, one of the things we found as we were talking beforehand is a lot of this relates to perspective. There’s no question, there’s extra pressure during flexible working arrangements, and then the last year and a half. But we have also found that there’s some real benefits that come out of this time, especially if you change your perspective. So I thought that was so interesting that she really raised that as well from the perspective angle.

So like I said, please think about that as we go through this today. And then definitely chat in any of your thoughts or add your Q&A. Add your comments to the Q&A area. We want to answer any questions and that really speak to your comments as we go.

So thanks to all of our panelists who are here with us. And I thought we’d start with an easy question, which is, what is your current working arrangement right now? And is it changing at all? So we’ll start with Shiva Altadonna.

Shiva Altadonna 02:58

Good morning, everyone. My current work arrangement is I’m mostly working from home. Recently, since Arch opened while on a voluntary basis, I’ve been going in on Wednesdays when the rest of my team is also present so we can have some in person meetings. Prior to pandemic, I did work from home once a week, but this has definitely been a big shift in my schedule.

Janet Lindstrom 03:19

Okay, how about Kelsey?

Kelsey Cabrera 03:21

Hi everyone, I am 100% remote, work-from-home employee. Maybe one of the things that’s unique about me is that I’ve actually been a work-from-home employee for the past seven years. So definitely had some experience with this remote environment prior to the pandemic.

Janet Lindstrom 03:38

And Jackie.

Jacqueline Lozano 03:40

As of now, I’m currently fully working from home, but eventually going to make my way back to the office. And what’s unique is that I started this position working from home during the pandemic. So, I’m a pandemic hire and the situation has been that I’ve been working from home.

Janet Lindstrom 03:58

Great. I am recently, as of July, working in the office three days a week, and then at home two days. And one of the things I really enjoy about being the office, besides seeing people is the better internet, which is always a challenge for me when I’m working from home. That’s a little bit about each of us and what our current arrangements are.

Let’s start with another question which may come across as negative, but just hold with us because we do have some positives coming after that. So the question is really, what key exposure opportunities might someone miss when they’re working from home or working remotely? So let’s start with Kelsey. What would you say to that?

Kelsey Cabrera 04:37

I think one of the things that I’ve observed is just those informal interactions. You miss out on those opportunities to have the coffee, or lunch with somebody else, the hallway chat. So a lot of those just informal interactions, which in turn creates shared experience and some of that relationship building outside of just that work environment. It’s harder to recreate those in the virtual where everything has to be scheduled and planned in advance.

Janet Lindstrom 05:04

I think you had mentioned at one point, you also find it to be a bit isolating. Anything more to say on that?

Kelsey Cabrera 05:12

That is absolutely been my experience, especially even before the pandemic. I don’t think I was prepared for that. Hadn’t really realized or recognized how isolating it could be if you allowed it to be. I’ve had to be much more intentional about interactions with other people and creating that because it’s very easy to not leave your house for days on end in some situations.

Janet Lindstrom 05:38

Jackie, how about you?

Jacqueline Lozano 05:42

I think, like what Kelsey mentioned, working from home, but also the kind of transition back to the office where it’s a flexible schedule. And if you’re aiming to meet up, what kind of challenges does that add on top of your daily workload? Trying to make it to the office at the same time as your team or your manager, and coordinating those efforts, while still also being health conscious. Which is one of the reasons why I still haven’t made it back into the office yet and worked face to face with my manager. That’s another kind of layer that’s added to it even in this transition phase.

Janet Lindstrom 06:20

Yeah, and Shiva, what have you been finding about exposure opportunities that are more difficult?

Shiva Altadonna 06:28

Along the lines of what Kelsey was saying, I find the lack of in person meetings, a little bit different, right? There’s none of that social interaction either, like, “How was your weekend? How was your day?” It’s much more formal meeting when you get together. I also find that people are less likely to ask questions, which are important for growth, because they feel like they’d have to schedule that as opposed to if we’re in the office, they can walk by and just ask a quick question that might be very meaningful.

Janet Lindstrom 06:52

I agree. And I do find, and I’m sure everyone here does, that everything has become a meeting because it has to be to really get in touch with others. The informal nature of things just as much more difficult.

Let’s turn from the negative now to the positive. We really wanted to break it down into a few categories. So how can meaningful exposure still be available in a more flexible work schedule?

So first, we’re going to talk about getting or gaining exposure to executives or to leaders. How could someone manage that in a flexible working arrangement? We’ll start with Shiva.

Shiva Altadonna 07:29

So I think Janet, you just made a very great point where things are now more scheduled meetings. So I find this is a better opportunity for me to include line managers who have subject matter expertise on a particular topic of interest for senior management. And instead of me walking by and giving the answer, I have the opportunity now to schedule a call so that my line managers get that exposure to Pat Nails, our Chief Claims Officer, or other senior claims management, and it gives them a chance to sort of show their strength.

Janet Lindstrom 07:58

Yeah, and I realized just yesterday that there is something we used to do in person, and there’s no reason we couldn’t do it now going forward. We used to take a team and have them sit down for lunch with one of the executives. That would of course be in person. And we haven’t done that or anything like that in the last one year and a half. But there’s no reason we can’t do a Zoom. Of course, it’d be a little bit more planful. But, you know, have some fun questions or wait icebreakers or something so that the team gets to meet the executive and vice versa. So that’s definitely something I want to bring back going forward.

So those, those are some thoughts we had on gaining exposure to leaders during this time. But please, again, everyone, if you could put in the chat directly any other ideas you have on that front. So again, gaining exposures to leaders. And then next, we’re gonna move to team management and dynamics.

So Kelsey, what are your thoughts on the team angle? You know, I think there’s several that I’ve heard from you all. So what are your thoughts on this?

Kelsey Cabrera 09:08

I think in general, I think we would all agree that in many ways, being in this virtual environment has really leveled the playing field, and eliminated some of the barriers of having exposure to even more people than we would have otherwise. Particularly if we’re geographically spread across offices and across locations. It’s helped us to think of that team environment a little differently.

One of the ways that we have tried to still create some that team dynamic and bridge the gap with some of the interpersonal or informal interactions is to make sure we’re still having fun and creating space for those informal interactions. And whether it’s information sharing, kind of like you were alluding to with even executive exposure, but it could be cross team information sharing, or also just game time, and trivia and creating space for some of those informal interactions and team dynamic and team building opportunities.

Janet Lindstrom 10:10

Excellent. And, Jackie, how about you.

Jacqueline Lozano 10:14

I think another great way of maximizing that team collaboration in this kind of environment is, having started virtually getting to know my teammates, and everyone in my department from a virtual perspective and getting back into the office, I have that advantage of starting hitting the ground running. So that’s been really great to have that advantage. As well as working and maximizing time efficiently when working on collaborative projects. We’re able to really block out time and maximize through technology and our time efficiently. So I find that that aspect has been doubled and tripled the speed of time, being able to work with others from virtual perspective.

Janet Lindstrom 10:57

Definitely. We were chatting with Shiva and she mentioned something related to huddle boards. So I thought it’d be great if you could share that Shiva. That’s something we’ve been doing more of an Arch. And so it was a major impact when we when we suddenly were no longer working in the office. If you could share that that would be great.

Shiva Altadonna 11:18

Sure. My team is kind of based all over the U.S. and actually Philippines. So I have different people in New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, North Carolina, Florida, and the Philippines, which is where our Global Services resides. When we did the huddles, live in Jersey City, we actually took a laptop and did the Zoom meeting, but it wasn’t very interactive because you had everyone remote trying to look at this physical huddle board. Then you had people standing around a desk and nobody could hear this person, that person.

The first few weeks when we went into the pandemic was a little rough, because we needed to kind of work out that technology. But once we got a virtual huddle board set up, I don’t think we’re ever going back because we have so much more team interaction and exposure now than we did then that I think it’s been a fantastic result.

Janet Lindstrom 12:12

Yeah, definitely. From a totally different angle, my only addition on this would be to ask people what would work for them. To really poll the team. In this question relating to, how can people have better exposure for team management or team dynamics, I would just really poll the team itself and see what ideas they have.

One of the things that’s going on right now at Arch is we’re launching our new, Pursuing Better Together promise. I realized that it fits so well here. Which is, we can, and each of you can, in your teams Pursue Better Together relating to how do we do this best.

I know, in some cases, I think maybe someone else will mention this in a little bit, that could just be the team wants to all get together on the same day. They pick the day that they want to get together. But they may have ideas about some of what I think Kelsey was saying with the games. And some of them may just be really into certain games and totally want to lead something like that.

I definitely would recommend that people just poll the team if you haven’t already and say, what can we do so we get you better exposure to executives, to each other, have a bit more fun dynamics. I know a lot people did the happy hours, initially, virtual happy hours. But I think we’re all looking for new solutions to really continue good group dynamics.

So the next question, and it’s still in the same major category of how can people get better exposure, but this is more about growth opportunities. And so I’m going to turn it over to Kelsey, and let us know for growth specifically, more in personal growth. What are your recommendations?

Kelsey Cabrera 13:55

Great. I think for me, what I found personally is just needing to be in control of my own time and my calendar, and knowing, recognizing what’s most important. I love the adage that your “No” is as important as your “Yes.” And so making sure that you’re intentional about your time and where you’re spending your time to achieve the growth wherever, whatever that looks like for you individually. So whether that’s carving out time in your calendar for external industry wide learning opportunities, internal learning opportunities, it could be networking or mentoring, but you’re carving out that time specifically on your calendar to realize those growth opportunities that are important to you.

Janet Lindstrom 14:38

Yeah, and Jackie, I know earlier, you talked about some things that had been in person really aren’t available, and one of those might be the industry events. Can you speak to how someone could use different settings for growth using those industry events?

Jacqueline Lozano 14:56

Definitely. Events like this where we’re all virtual, it makes it a lot more accessible for many people to be able to log on and join. And these are great opportunities for networking, growth opportunities, and, learning about yourself and having the accessibility to be able to log in and join means that you can join as many and kind of spread your time and take that on as a learning opportunity. So it’s been a really great kind of addition and hobby to learn and add on to my personal growth.

Janet Lindstrom 15:32

I agree. And I love that we can even, if we can’t make every one of the events today, we can actually log back in and see it for a while afterwards. And I’m definitely going to do that. That’s a great additional thing that really wouldn’t have been possible, probably with an in-person setting. So I love that as another way that you can fit it into your schedule, a bit more in a virtual setting, or a hybrid setting.

Shiva, what are your thoughts on growth, and how to really carve room for yourself.

Shiva Altadonna 16:04

So growth, for me was actually big during the pandemic, because I did actually get promoted during the pandemic, and my team more than doubled in size. Which I think for me, the key was to be kind to myself. And I think we’re all guilty of that. I think we put so much pressure on ourselves. And to Kelsey’s point, your “No” is just as important as your “Yes.” It’s important to stay focused. And sometimes that means taking some time off, taking a break, walking away from the computer. And I find that that’s really part of the growth. I think it’s volunteering and being available to your team so that you can help them grow as well. But it’s also taking the time for yourself.

Janet Lindstrom 16:44

Excellent. And so we got a question in which is great. As we think about career and development opportunities, what are your recommendations to find out about potential opportunities through those informal discussions?

So let’s reframe that to maybe just how do you find about how do you find out about opportunities since maybe there are new opportunities and we had before? Does anyone have an idea on that one?

How do you learn about events? Or how do you hear what some cool things other teams are doing that you might be able to piggyback on anything like that? Or let’s say a certain executive is interested in meeting with groups like I was describing earlier. How are you learning about some of these opportunities yourselves that you can recommend?

Kelsey Cabrera 17:37

I can start. I think one thing that I’ve tried to be intentional about is just looking for those opportunities across multiple levels. So talking to your manager, also making it known to your manager of what you’re interested in, and that you’re looking for those types of opportunities.

But then also talking to your peers. One of the things as we talked about with the remote working is that we now have access to more people in different locations and across the organization more so today than I ever had before. As I take advantage of getting to know more people and those networking opportunities, I’m also learning about what they do at the company, and what are the opportunities and organizations and things that they’re involved in that then my pique some interest in me, or help me to stay connected to them to learn more about future opportunities.

So I think that there’s lots of different avenues that you can work, and it’s it making your intentions known. I think sometimes it takes some bravery and stepping out, you have to be your own advocate and take the initiative to find these opportunities. They’re not necessarily going to come find you. So that would definitely be a recommendation is that you need to take the initiative to seek it and use the resources, all resources that are available to you.

Janet Lindstrom 18:55

And that’s so great, Kelsey, love your thoughts. And I love the initiative, but it doesn’t have to be a huge thing that you do. It could just be make knowing that you’re interested. So when you do meet somebody new in the company, or have a little time to talk with them, just ask, what are you doing right now that you’ve found really effective? Or, new things that are going on in the growth field, that we could take advantage of.

So I think comes down to exactly what you said taking initiative, and it’s not a huge initiative. It’s a small one, but just really leveraging those opportunities you already have and keep pushing, like you would normally do in networking in person and now you’re doing it virtually. Does anybody else have another thought on that question?

Shiva Altadonna 19:37

I do Janet. I was just thinking about what we do at Arch. So we run The Arch Experience, which is on a on a much more senior level, but it allows a cross section of different teams to get together to talk about whatever the experience is of that week, Be the Solution, Be Collaborative, Be Fanatical about Responsiveness. And those are the opportunities when you get to meet people from other departments and really see what’s going on there.

Janet Lindstrom 20:03

Any thoughts, Jackie?

Jacqueline Lozano 20:06

I think Kelsey exactly like what you were mentioning, being intentional. And I think another way to kind of bridge that gap is to offer your own expertise. What works for you and seeking out what could help. In that way, you’re helping others, as you’re seeking out how to improve your own team dynamic as well.

Janet Lindstrom 20:28

Love it. That’s great. We have another question. And that is to Shiva. Can you tell us a little bit more about the huddle? So how do you want to summarize that?

Shiva Altadonna 20:39

Sure. So our actual huddle board is done through SmartSheet, which is a Microsoft product. So that’s what we use to create the huddle board. And then we use RingCentral. So we all get onto the RingCentral meeting, share the huddle board, which is on SmartSheet, and it can be updated virtually right on the screen by whoever is in charge of running that particular huddle.

Janet Lindstrom 21:00

And so it’s, who’s in the huddle? And then what are the main categories in the huddle? And this again, goes back to when we’re talking about how to get how to improve your team dynamics or your how your team gets together and talk. So it’s definitely something we’ve been doing more of at Arch. So who’s in the huddle?

Shiva Altadonna 21:19

Right now, it’s actually my whole team. So it’s about 53 of us that join the huddle twice a week. We do it on Tuesdays and Thursdays from 10:30 to 11. In the future, I foresee breaking that up into sort of my main teams.

But the things that I find very important about the huddle is number one is communication. Because it’s an opportunity to share what’s working and what’s not working. And the other, the other two most important things are the continuous improvement that comes out of that, because you go through the things that aren’t working, and you work together to come up with the ideas on how you can make it better. And finally, my favorite, which is we have a recognition wall, which we do at the end of every huddle. And it’s to recognize not just each other, but anyone else within the organization that’s been helpful to us for that particular moment in time.

Janet Lindstrom 22:08

And it’s such a high point for people, even outside your department, to hear that they are on your huddle board in that recognition area. Seriously, it’s a huge thing to be surprised. You would contact them and let them know you showed up on our huddle board, as thanks for doing such and such. And so that’s another great way that you can connect with people both in your team and even outside, the team and they get to interact with you also. Was there anything else on the huddle board that you didn’t cover already as far as categories?

Shiva Altadonna 22:39

I mean, we definitely go through the nitty gritty of our different topics that we have. We talk about subrogation and where we are in terms of our savings, and we talk about litigation management and how that’s going. So we do have that breakdown. But the overall themes are the ones I mentioned.

Janet Lindstrom 22:55

Perfect. Okay, and just in case people are wondering, RingCentral is just like Zoom. So it can definitely be done in this forum, too. So I don’t see other questions right now, but definitely keep sending in any comments or questions, and we’ll definitely weave them in. So the next question. I wanted to actually make sure that we still get to you Shiva on the growth opportunities. Did you have anything more you wanted to share there?

Shiva Altadonna 23:21

No, I think I mentioned most of them. I think another one that really stands out for me is the lack of a commute has allowed me for more sleep with I think people can relate to which actually leads me to more productivity. So that definitely helps.

Janet Lindstrom 23:34

Love it. Okay, and let’s now talk about another question that we have, which is, what solutions, structural solutions, might be put in place that would really make it equitable. Knowing that as we go forward, there’ll be a number of different kinds of working arrangements.

So Jackie, what were your thoughts on that?

Jacqueline Lozano 23:58

I have two. Kind of on a smaller scale and a larger scale. Similar to what she was mentioning, on the recognition side within her team and her organization, company-wide there are platforms like Kudos that can allow for recognition for all types of things, all types of levels. And like you said, Janet, it’s such a great feeling receiving a Kudos, receiving recognition from your peers across the organization, and makes it super accessible. And giving that recognition makes it top of mind and intentional and how you’re working with people. So that’s a really great opportunity organization-wide that we have at Arch and can just facilitate that communication, conversation, what would have been done, on a quick walk to a meeting. Congratulations, things like that, can still be done in this virtual world.

And in addition, on a personal level, having a formal mentoring program has been something that we recently also launched at Arch and being a part of that is something really needed and I think offers a solution for developing those mentoring relationships that can sometimes be the evolution of a working relationship and then evolve organically. And where that might not be as easy to do over formal meetings and email, a formal mentoring program can really facilitate that in an intentional way, and still allow for growth opportunities within the organization.

Janet Lindstrom 25:32

And that’s such a great way too, back to the executives and a leader level, that people can gain exposure. So that’s another great answer to that alone. Not just exposure, but really build a relationship with that person. Love that answer.

Kelsey? How about you?

Kelsey Cabrera 25:50

Creating these equitable working environment is definitely something that we’ve been talking about a lot lately, as we are starting to move into more of a hybrid environment. And I think the word that comes to mind is adaptability.

Just like we had to adapt into a full remote environment, we’re now looking to adapt again to what does this hybrid environment look like? I think it’s how can we take the best of the in-person and the best of the virtual and marry it together to what this new hybrid working environment looks like.

I think if we just tried to make it look like it did 100%, virtual or like it did before the pandemic, that’s probably not going to work for us as well, going forward. Some examples of things that we’ve been looking at, we’ve recently had, 10-20 person collaborative meetings, and half of the team is virtual half of the team is in-person. So again, how do we really leverage the technology that’s available, which we, let’s be frank, we didn’t use or didn’t think of using prior to the pandemic. But now with all of these video capabilities, how do we use that to our benefit, to create the best collaborative meetings and working sessions possible.

So recently, we did have one of those opportunities. And again, half the team was virtual half the team was in-person, everybody dialed in just like this. So we could still have this visual and this face-to-face. We were able to leverage other tools electronically to create collaboration atmosphere. But there’s still benefit in the meeting, I would say, felt different by having a group that was in-person. And that was able to kind of still create that up swelling of that collaboration being in-person. I think that there are ways and it is pulling on a little bit of the best and everything that’s available to us to make it work.

Janet Lindstrom 27:41

Yeah. And I think you just kind of answered one of the other questions that we got in, but I’m gonna read it off and see if you have any other thoughts.

I was a great question. We’ve made some new progress and really come up with a lot of new tools, and how do we make sure that we don’t go back to old habits when we get back in the office. Even for the few days that you’re in the office, a week or however often that is?

And so I think you were just speaking to that. We weren’t doing well with technology, at least here for meetings, people wouldn’t want to put their cameras on. I think we’re all fine with that now. But is there anything else you would recommend to making sure that people take the best of what we’ve had now from the past and carry it forward? Just to make sure we don’t go back to our old paths, but instead, we really leverage what we’ve learned in the last year and a half. Any thoughts?

Kelsey Cabrera 28:34

Right. I hope we’ve learned from it. Right? We’ve learned that it can be better, because it is very easy to just reach out to the individuals that you see physically once you do have that group that’s in person. And hopefully what this last year and a half has afforded us is the recognition and exposure to so many others in the office, and the other ways of working. Yeah, that we don’t slide back into those habits and patterns.

Janet Lindstrom 29:02

I think you’re right, like just all that we’ve benefited from. And I think everyone on the phone has seen that. Keep reminding yourself of all that and really continue to leverage all of that.

We have one last question. We have one minute. So it’ll be very quick, but thanks for your questions, everybody. The question is what advice do you have for younger women seeking mentorship?

Jacqueline Lozano 29:26

I think in addition to either a formal mentor program, something like joining an Employee Network. I know that I’ve really expanded my network joining the Women and Allies Network and things like that having common interests and common goals. Any sort of groups like that, through your organization have been really great opportunities for mentorship.

Janet Lindstrom 29:47

Great, so I see Jessie and that’s our cue. I want to thank all of you panelists, so Shiva, Kelsey, Jackie, for all your thoughts and sharing that with us and everybody listening in and providing your questions and your chats. Thank you all for attending.